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 Realism Invictus Huge Europe Map Beta 
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Trainee

Joined: 20 Aug 2016, o 17:03
Posts: 10
Post Realism Invictus Huge Europe Map Beta
Hi there,

I have been working on a Huge Europe Map for Realism Invictus. Initial credits goes to Nirv4n4 from CFC (2010 Version of his map) although I don't know if he reused someone's work.

This is a "beta" version if you may. Therefore, I publish it in order to get suggestions and feedbacks, in particular regarding the following points:
    Resources distribution
  • Resources that are not present in Europe : Should they appear ? If yes, where ? (e.g. : Corn, bananas, maybe silk)
  • some resources are not well distributed in europe (Coal, Oil, natural gas etc.). How should I distribute them ?
  • Any suggestion regarding Copper/Iron/Aluminium/Sulfur distribution ?
  • Larges places in Russia present few interest. I tried to populate them with some civilization (Cf. Know Issues) but I think spreading some resources migh be a good idea. What do you think ? Which resources? Where ?
  • Do you have any idea on how many resources of each type should be present for a map of this size ? (Maybe statistics from other maps generators? I may collect them myself though... but any help is welcome :) )
  • What about reefs and rocky islands?
    Civilizations:
  • The nil valley seems overcrowded. Should I move the nubia to the left ?
  • I haven't removed all the existing roads. Shall I ? Does it matter?
  • Any RI existing civilization that I missed ? Any that civilization that should in no case appear here ?

Any suggestions are welcome. Feedbacks and help too.

    Known issues :
  • Israel, West African, Inuit and Siberian are "minor" civilization (can't build Settler etc.) -> I can solve this by : 1) modifying RI XML's (Bad idea), 2) adding new alternate civilization in the XML's, 3) using more generic civilization for these (Might lose uniqueness though).
  • Resources are abondant and everywhere, not linked to any reality. Suggestions regarding resources distribution are more than welcome to make the map fun to play, quite realistic and challenging.
  • Central main civilization (German, French etc.) tends to struggle and disappear quite quickly, I may buff them a bit.


Tell me if you have some good filehosting site, don't know a thing about the reliability of the one I'm currently using.

Download --> http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?fi ... 7489488870


5 Sep 2016, o 04:58
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Trainee

Joined: 20 Aug 2016, o 17:03
Posts: 10
Post Re: Realism Invictus Huge Europe Map Beta
Walter, do you mind if I post a similar post on CFC RI's Thread? (There : http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthrea ... 9&page=297)


5 Sep 2016, o 05:07
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Joined: 12 Jul 2007, o 09:23
Posts: 3093
Post Re: Realism Invictus Huge Europe Map Beta
Go ahead and post it, of course.

Regarding resources, I think the historical distribution can work quite well for most of them - oil, iron etc. Most strategic resources were/are actually present in quite large amounts in the subcontinent (http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-mineral-map.htm). For example, Europe is positively filled with coal (see here, for example: http://www.open.edu/openlearn/science-m ... ction-4.5; note how there is a little coal all over in Europe). The only RI strategic resource that is relatively scarce (or, rather, very unevenly distributed) in Europe is bauxite/aluminum. In some cases here, gameplay should probably trump realism, so if there is absolutely none of something strategically important in a large map region, it should still get it.

Regarding corn/potatoes, I think RI cultivation system can take care of if you add enough fertile patches - Europe will start with none of those, but get some in Industrial era through cultivation.

For stuff like bananas, I guess Europe will have to do without - or alternatively, there can be abstracted small "coast of Brazil", "coast of North America", "coast of India" small islands separated with ocean and filled with appropriate resources, for establishing European "colonies" later in game. This can be extended to "Silk Road", for example, which would be the area somewhere at the eastern edge of the map providing silk resources to whoever controls it. In general, currently the map seems overly generous regarding resources. I'd remove some, especially luxuries.

For minor civs, I think you should just work with their limitations where they are appropriate (Israel, Netherlands actually feel all right as city-states) and do some creative substitution in other places. For example, I see what you did in Scandinavia, but I'm not sure of the reasoning behind the two civs starting where they do; what are they supposed to represent? If I were to split the Scandinavian civ, I'd go along the way of Denmark and Sweden or Sweden and Norway. Current starting spots don't make sense for this division. Also, I'm not sure if Inuit civ has any place to be in Europe. Instead, one could clone Finnish civ with different city sets to represent other northern Ugric tribes if needed.

Depending on your strategic vision, one could also alter the setup of civs to be more accurate for Bronze Age and early Iron Age. For instance, there could be another Celtic civ in Galatia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatia#Celtic_Galatia) and maybe some other Celts in mainland Western Europe, to represent Gaul. Additionally, a lot of fun can be had with various tribes in Pontic and Caspian steppes, seeing how they are on the map. One could also make Middle East more crowded, by introducing some more civs/city states there. Likewise, seeing how you already have a separate Halych-Volhynia on the map (a bit excessive when used together with Ukraine if you ask me), you could further subdivide Russians by at least creating Novgorod Principality.

I don't think Ethiopia really fits on the map as it is now, nor the poor African civs at the lower edge of the map - it doesn't reach as far as actual Mali.

I'd go with lots of added reefs. Remember for example that English NI is reef-based, so there should be plenty of reefs around the British Isles. In many cases, you can consult our World Maps for resource and feature placement, as we spent quite some time researching this stuff for them.


5 Sep 2016, o 06:24
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Joined: 20 Aug 2016, o 17:03
Posts: 10
Post Re: Realism Invictus Huge Europe Map Beta
Walter Hawkwood wrote:
Regarding resources, I think the historical distribution can work quite well for most of them - oil, iron etc. Most strategic resources were/are actually present in quite large amounts in the subcontinent (http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-mineral-map.htm). For example, Europe is positively filled with coal (see here, for example: http://www.open.edu/openlearn/science-m ... ction-4.5; note how there is a little coal all over in Europe).


For Coal, the thing is, if I remember, it's a common resource, but it has not been exploited everywhere (northern Europe and UK Mostly, not Spain for example iirc). But I agree this one won't be a problem.

Walter Hawkwood wrote:
The only RI strategic resource that is relatively scarce (or, rather, very unevenly distributed) in Europe is bauxite/aluminum. In some cases here, gameplay should probably trump realism, so if there is absolutely none of something strategically important in a large map region, it should still get it.


Absolutely.

Walter Hawkwood wrote:
Regarding corn/potatoes, I think RI cultivation system can take care of if you add enough fertile patches - Europe will start with none of those, but get some in Industrial era through cultivation.


Yes, I think it's not a big deal and it will appear through fertile lands anyway.

Walter Hawkwood wrote:
For stuff like bananas, I guess Europe will have to do without - or alternatively, there can be abstracted small "coast of Brazil", "coast of North America", "coast of India" small islands separated with ocean and filled with appropriate resources, for establishing European "colonies" later in game. This can be extended to "Silk Road", for example, which would be the area somewhere at the eastern edge of the map providing silk resources to whoever controls it.


Yeah Silkroads and Banana road in a "Route du Rhum" fashion is a good idea to do it. Far better than spreading it.

Walter Hawkwood wrote:
In general, currently the map seems overly generous regarding resources. I'd remove some, especially luxuries.


Yeah, as I mention, the resource distribution in this states is quite ridiculous. I'll probably go through some statistical distribution for balance, and following your advice/work for realism.

Walter Hawkwood wrote:
For minor civs, I think you should just work with their limitations where they are appropriate (Israel, Netherlands actually feel all right as city-states) and do some creative substitution in other places.


Ok, but keeping them playable then?

Walter Hawkwood wrote:
For example, I see what you did in Scandinavia, but I'm not sure of the reasoning behind the two civs starting where they do; what are they supposed to represent? If I were to split the Scandinavian civ, I'd go along the way of Denmark and Sweden or Sweden and Norway. Current starting spots don't make sense for this division.


I don't know much about scandinavia but Sweden has always been dominant there. Danemark would be kinda artificial I think... The idea was more to have an "antic Norway" (Vikings?) and a Sweden (Scandinavians) to fill the spots. As both Denmark, Sweden and Norway claim to be the home of vikings, I picked viking for Norway, spawing them more in the north for the sake of "vital space" if you may ^^

If I get it, you suggest to split the scandinavian and not using them, right ? Should I re-position viking in the south or norway then ?

Walter Hawkwood wrote:
Also, I'm not sure if Inuit civ has any place to be in Europe.


No they have none, they were meant to fill the steppes :)

Walter Hawkwood wrote:
Instead, one could clone Finnish civ with different city sets to represent other northern Ugric tribes if needed.


Hmm that or letting the barbarian occupy the lands... I don't want to alter your RI files just for this map.

Walter Hawkwood wrote:
Depending on your strategic vision, one could also alter the setup of civs to be more accurate for Bronze Age and early Iron Age. For instance, there could be another Celtic civ in Galatia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatia#Celtic_Galatia) and maybe some other Celts in mainland Western Europe, to represent Gaul. Additionally, a lot of fun can be had with various tribes in Pontic and Caspian steppes, seeing how they are on the map.


The problem is mostly to create new alternative civilizations, which means, if I'm correct, modifying the RI assets right ?

Walter Hawkwood wrote:
One could also make Middle East more crowded, by introducing some more civs/city states there. Likewise, seeing how you already have a separate Halych-Volhynia on the map (a bit excessive when used together with Ukraine if you ask me), you could further subdivide Russians by at least creating Novgorod Principality.


Yeah, some civilization are indeed redundant like I said. Being Russian (right?), can you give me more inputs regarding how to populate the East of the map?

Walter Hawkwood wrote:
I don't think Ethiopia really fits on the map as it is now, nor the poor African civs at the lower edge of the map - it doesn't reach as far as actual Mali.


Ok, I'll remove them. To me, they were civilizations on the edge we could be happy to play (In a similar fashion to the Mongol influence in Europe).

Walter Hawkwood wrote:
I'd go with lots of added reefs. Remember for example that English NI is reef-based, so there should be plenty of reefs around the British Isles.

True, I've added some in the beginning as I was aware of that. My understanding is that it needs more of them, right ?

Walter Hawkwood wrote:
In many cases, you can consult our World Maps for resource and feature placement, as we spent quite some time researching this stuff for them.


Yup, I will.
Step 1) Reducing vastly the amounts of resources, Step 2) spread them accordingly to your work and researches, Step 3) fill the gaps, for the balancing's sake


Thank you very much for your feedbacks !


5 Sep 2016, o 11:59
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Joined: 12 Jul 2007, o 09:23
Posts: 3093
Post Re: Realism Invictus Huge Europe Map Beta
Regarding alternate civs, if they are not full-blown separate civs, but rather one of existing civs using a different flag, leader and city set, that is quite easy, and I could make some scenario-specific flags and leaders after you're through working on the scenario. Check our Crusades scenario to see how this is handled. You can add different city lists, civ names and leader names yourself.

Regarding the east of the map, my suggestions are as follows (feel free to use part of them, I guess using all would be too much; also note that my suggestions are from medieval era onwards, and don't include ancient/classical civs such as Scythians/Sarmatians who also inhabited that region):

Principality of Novgorod (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novgorod_Republic) - Galich or Russia clone
Volga Bulgaria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volga_Bulgaria) - Tatar clone
Cumans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumans) - Hun clone (not actually sure if Europe needs actual Hun civ, as Huns were outside invaders)
Crimean Khanate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Khanate) - Tatar clone
Khazaria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars) - Tatar clone
Permia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Perm) - Finland clone
Georgia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Georgia) - Armenia clone (rather imperfect, but we do the same in Crusades scenario)


6 Sep 2016, o 02:30
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